Author Topic: Basic prospects  (Read 3527 times)

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JRS

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Basic prospects
« on: April 29, 2014, 09:28:16 PM »
I would say BASIC hobbyist are SOL as far as forum resources go. Script BASIC is targeted at commercial / professional use and I'm happy to play the Maytag repairman role with SB. 

I have been a BASIC language developer since the early 80s. I think the BASIC community shit on their own plate and fragmented the language so badly everyone moved on. The landscape is littered with half baked wet dreams of being a BASIC developer.

From what Mike has demonstrated with his FBSL seems impressive.  One would have to ask why aren't PowerBASIC users migrating to Mike's corner? My take is no matter how great FBSL is, it is going to be difficult to convince people to invest in a closed source BASIC from a guy in Bulgaria.

@Mike - When comparing the strengths and benefits of SB, O2 and FBSL, you forgot the important category of being open or closed source.

« Last Edit: April 29, 2014, 09:54:07 PM by John »

Aurel

  • Guest
Re: Basic prospects
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2014, 10:10:45 PM »
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I think the BASIC community shit on their own plate

and this is funny toooo  ;D ;D

Ahhh FBSL...yes it is good  :D

Aurel

  • Guest
Re: Basic prospects
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2014, 02:45:49 AM »
heh and what about for example reincarnation like Burbon Basic  BBC
It looks that author visit bp.org in hope to see some nice words or something ::)

Mike Lobanovsky

  • Guest
Re: Basic prospects
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2014, 04:47:57 AM »
@John:

What I mean by contributors are people that ... just join and never login.
These are mostly spambots, not humans. They never come back after 2 or 3 failed attempts to auto-login immediately. Otherwise they are 7 or 8 year-old children. The odds are approx. 100 to 1.

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I think Microsoft's update system and zero day responses are pitiful for a company that large and with so many installs on the desktop.
Sure they are huge but probably not as huge as they should've been for so large a market share. IMHO they bit off more length they could chew right from the start, and their striving to expand to other neighboring markets so aggressively (which is generally a wise thing to do to minimize risks in the main business sphere) at the expense of their main client base may mean they don't regard the OS market as prevailing in their strategic future plans any more.

However I don't consider myself in a position to give reliable forecasts or analyses of businesses of such scope. By my own experience, business laws differ considerably at different levels of annual turnover in a corporate entity. I'd say there are at least four such levels of comprehension between what is more or less my sphere of competence, which is only $1Mln per annum or less, and a monster of Microsoft Corp.'s size. :)

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... old guys with no friends ...
That way they become each other's friends which isn't bad at all. :)

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I think the BASIC community shit on their own plate...
That's because there's no more any indie BASIC community to speak of user-wise. Many developers seem to be left one on one with their creations. Everyone's pretending they are doing their work exclusively at their leisure time and for their own pleasure while in fact only trying to disguise their disappointment and annoyance. This is of course not so. A worthwhile BASIC requires a lot of dedicated time and effort and can't be created in between walking a dog and taking a nap. I guess female babysitters would make perfect language developers ... if only they were males.

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One would have to ask why aren't PowerBASIC users migrating to Mike's corner?
FBSL is not a PowerBASIC reflection. I used to admire Turbo Basic a lot in the past but only until I met Visual Basic. I own and am still keeping in my closet all the VB installation diskettes and disks starting with version 3. OTOH while pre-v3 FBSL was largely an extension of Windows batching techniques similar to AutoIt, FBSL v3 in its BASIC part was an attempt to get access to functionality not (readily) available in VB6 which was run-time independence, direct memory access, safe subclassing, and seamless integration with 3rd-party dynamic libraries.

Concurrently, it was a (successful) attempt to get rid of strong data typing inherent in all beginner-oriented BASIC's including VB6. FBSL is not (so much) for beginners, it's meant for people who know their way about programming in general, and Windows SDK, in particular - and that's the way VB6 itself has migrated over the years in the hands of dedicated and skillful VB6 users and modders. VB6 doesn't de facto belong to MS any more. Its a very valuable Public Domain, and I don't regard warez installations of VB6 as real piracy any more even though I paid $365.00 for my first licensed VB3 diskette box at the local official MS dealer's. :)

At the same time, FBSL's BASIC remained totally Variant-based from ground up similar to VB6 and its Variant type is also COM- and VB6-compatible.

PowerBASIC is not an interpreter and it even hasn't been COM Variant-capable until very recently. Its long-time users are accustomed to static compilation and linking, are not inquisitive, and rely on their compiler to throw their own outstanding mistakes in their faces. Speed-wise, PowerBASIC is no better than any decent JIT compiler such as Charles' Oxygen or Mike's DynAsm or Mike's (with some attribution due to Fabrice Bellard) DynC. LuaJIT and Idle's just-in-time compilers are visibly poorer than these three in both the quality of machine code they generate and its resultant speed.

If you want to know my cincere opinion, Charles' OxygenBasic is the closest candidate to fill in the gap left over by PowerBASIC, may it R.I.P. (rest in pieces, PBCC and PBWin). OxygenBasic is well structured and easy to maintain, very versatile (e.g. OOP capable) even in its bare-bones form, 64-bit capable, fully Intel-style inline asm capable, statically compilable, and easily expandable to other platforms once translated to platform-independent ANSI C. It also generates excellent quality machine code for an unoptimising compiler. In other words, Charles alone did in a few years what the late Bob Zale with his company was trying to do all his lifetime.

Based on what Charles has put into Public Domain so far, I can easily visualize a team of two or three well-motivated* programmers that would re-create PowerBASIC environment and vocabulary on top of bare-bones OxygenBasic in its entirety in a matter of four to six months, polish its 64-bit performance and port it to Linux and Mac in another six months, and have it beta-tested and certified for industrial use in yet another six to twelve months at the most, et voila...

In the meantime, if Charles wouldn't feel like taking part in such a commercial project directly, he could stay with his original reincarnation of public-domain OxygenBasic improving and polishing its functionality further or perhaps even implementing the entire ANSI C in it at the lowest (i.e. fullest) level of integration similar to its existing Intel-style assembly.

He should however understand that if he doesn't want such an obviously highly likely initiative to occur without his direct participation or control, he should re-license all his further activities immediately under the toughest GNU GPL possible. This will not however have any retroactive effect on the OxygenBasic sources available for public access until this Wednesday, April 30, 2014 inclusive.

Unlike my amateurish attempts at probabilistic studies of Microsoft's behavioral patterns higher above, this time it is a very likely prognosis from a man that used to run two own private companies at once - a 650 sq.m. Italian furniture showroom and a 250 sq.m. food/tobacco/wine store. :)
_____________________
* - When saying "well-motivated", I always imply cash flow, either immediate or projected.

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... a guy in Bulgaria ...
In fact, matters are much worse than that. I do not live in Bulgaria that's only one step away from full integration into the European Union and only two steps away from becoming a NATO country.

I live in the Republic of Belarus, a small country between Poland and Russia, that's under total control of the neighboring Russian Federation and that has been, and still continues to be, uncontestedly governed by Alexander Lukashenko - the Last Dictator in Europe - for nearly twenty years.

The authoritarian Belarus is going to host the 2014 Ice Hockey World Championship starting this May 9 due to the "apolitical attitudes" of International Ice Hockey Federation's d*ckheads.

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When comparing the strengths and benefits of SB, O2 and FBSL, you forgot the important category of being open or closed source.
In view of what I outlined higher above, closed sources may be a definitive virtue. Also, you should clearly understand that I am not in full control of FBSL copyrights and licensing. I'm however doing my best to combine copy protection with ease of access to the final product.


@Aurel:

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Ahhh FBSL...yes it is good  :D
You can only accept my reciprocal grin. Both of us know what I'm talking about.

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Burbon Basic  BBC
That's yet another manifestation of man's eternal desire to play. I still remember my dear childhood teddybears - one brown, and the other one, pitch black, my favorite. :)
« Last Edit: April 30, 2014, 07:32:30 AM by Mike Lobanovsky »

Aurel

  • Guest
Re: Basic prospects
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2014, 06:43:05 AM »
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You can only accept my reciprocal grin. Both of us know what I'm talking about.

Mike
I don't mean anything bad.
Infact when i first time download FBSL , i have learn a lot from this examples ,in
first place from few editor (scintilla ) examples.  :D
ok?

And for example if someone ask me what would be my choice
again for example between thinBasic & FBSL i will say FBSL.
 

Aurel

  • Guest
Re: Basic prospects
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2014, 06:57:16 AM »
And Mike ..if i may ask you ...because you like cash flow...
Why FBSL is not started as a comercial product?

JRS

  • Guest
Re: Basic prospects
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2014, 07:37:17 AM »
Thanks Mike, great reply. I'm glad you decided to take interest in O2 and become a member here.

P.S.

Sorry about my error in association to Bulgaria. (even though their political aspirations towards self rule are more advanced)
« Last Edit: April 30, 2014, 08:39:04 AM by John »

Mike Lobanovsky

  • Guest
Re: Basic prospects
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2014, 12:28:48 AM »
Aurel,

thinBasic is a very, very solid piece of software and coupled with Charles' Oxygen, it is close to being perfect for a directly interpretative multi-purpose BASIC. Besides Eros' own fine work on the core engine, a lot of talented people have contributed to it with their plugin modules. Its documentation is superb and its popularity has always been immense. I respect and admire this project and its leaders a lot for what they've done for the BASIC community.

As for why FBSL isn't commercial, well, it is, partially. A good number of useful programs have been written in it for money and we have a few clients who paid for their licenses to have our lifetime support while they're using FBSL in their business environments. We just don't advertise it publicly because the project stays mainly freeware. The main idea behind it was to prove to ourselves that we would actually be capable of doing what we wanted and we did it, which is rewarding enough as such.

Though the two of my companions are professional programmers, i.e. they earn their living by writing software for money, it wasn't exactly so in my case. When FBSL v3 was started, I had two other sources of subsistence for me and my family and they needed a lot of my personal attention. Besides, commercial software doesn't imply just writing the code proper. It also implies a lot of extra investment into the accompanying promotion and advertisement campaign which we were not particularly able or ready to support financially.

This however doesn't mean that there could be noone else who would dare accept the risks and implement what I described in my previous message, especially now that PB Inc. is heading towards bankruptcy at full speed.

Mike Lobanovsky

  • Guest
Re: Basic prospects
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2014, 12:43:36 AM »
John,

Thanks and never mind the country. Bulgarians have always been very hospitable to Russian-speaking people and Bulgarian sandy beaches on the Black Sea coast are a nice place to spend one's summer on. I'm only glad they voted for democracy and stay firm in their choice.

I've been keeping an eye on Oxygen for a very long time and I'm also glad to be here. I guess the time has just come for me to be able to devote a little more to "social life". :)

JRS

  • Guest
Re: Basic prospects
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2014, 07:20:00 AM »
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now that PB Inc. is heading towards bankruptcy at full speed.

I don't have one tear to shed for that group. I think the plan from the beginning was to take the zombies with him.


JRS

  • Guest
Re: Basic prospects
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2014, 07:36:04 AM »
Quote from: Aurel
If i figured even half of this things i will become REAL developer



Anything is possible if you stop telling lies.  :P

Mike Lobanovsky

  • Guest
Re: Basic prospects
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2014, 09:48:50 AM »
Wowowowowowow, forgive him this time, John! :D

The article Ed pointed to was in fact so interesting that I read it from top to bottom two times in a row. It concerns OS emulator interpreters mostly but the principles of optimization and comparative data for different CPU's is very interesting nonetheless. And no, the material is not easy at all; it requires a solid asm background to follow the author.

o2admin

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Re: Basic prospects
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2014, 05:05:53 AM »
Some very interesting points which demand a new thread of their own, so I've split the topic from "Malware Infection at BP.org."