Author Topic: O2 vs. FB  (Read 13348 times)

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JRS

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Re: O2 vs. FB
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2014, 07:05:10 PM »
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as consumers moved to tablets and other mobile devices, the majority of which are using an OS derived from Linux.

Microsoft couldn't picked a worse time to fail. The economy was in the toilet and no one was doing much to upgrading the family PC running XP. Consumers realized that they really don't need a laptop or a PC to send e-mail and browse the net and can do that from the phone/tablet. As Microsoft fumbles for direction they decided to cut the heads off the majority of the consumer user base by retiring XP while providing no definitive 64 bit direction. So what does a consumer do. Spend $400 for a nice tablet and shop till they drop for free apps on Google Play or spend $1000-$1500 (hardware, office, ...) on a laptop or PC? I don't consider myself a PC user/consumer and only service that market. Linux is the neutral and omni directional OS that is currently the most used OS on the planet. (surpassing MS long ago) Most of the Linux OS installs are PC appliance based (phones, tablets, game consoles, ...) and server based. (90+ percent of that market) leaving the desktop up for grabs. I really don't think Microsoft gives a rats ass about the PC desktop/laptop users any more. They are even trying to move their developer customers to the cloud. ("N") I personally stop using desktop PC's about 5 years ago. My main development box is a Toshiba laptop. (ext. screen, keyboard and mouse when at my desk) I have gotten rid of all my old Dells and run EC2 instances for OSs I don't use on a daily basis.

Ballmer & Bush are classic examples of near fatal mistakes.

« Last Edit: January 04, 2014, 08:11:31 PM by John »

Kuron

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Re: O2 vs. FB
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2014, 08:19:32 PM »
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Microsoft couldn't picked a worse time to fail.
What was really sad is MS thinking they could be successful with Windows 8 for tablets when MS has a well-documented 10 year history of failure in the tablet market.  Ballmer didn't learn from the mistakes of Gates.

As to Windows in general...  Here are the December 2013 stats...

Windows 7 64 bit 50.76%
Windows 7 32 bit 12.59%
Windows 8 64 bit 10.56%
Windows 8 32 bit 00.58%
Windows 8.1 64 bit 08.53%
Windows 8.1 32 bit 00.30%

Virtually nobody is using the 32 bit editions of the last three versions of Windows.  Everybody is running the 64 bit versions.  Unfortunately, they are being forced to run legacy 32 bit applications under emulation (WoW64) because developers have simply refused to support 64 bit even when the hardware and operating systems and the consumers have all moved to 64 bit.

What even makes it worse is some versions of Windows simply do not support 32 bit emulation by default.  32 bit emulation is optional on Windows 2008 R2 and Windows 2012 and emulation for 32 bit legacy apps is not always installed.  Due to the restrictions on some server environments, 32 bit emulation can't be installed.  Part of why I had to ditch PowerBASIC for contract work is because I was doing contract work for a major defense contractor and due to the security in place, there was not any 32 bit emulation installed on their servers and it could not be installed.  I had to rewrite a couple of PowerBASIC applications in PureBasic so I could compile 64 bit versions.  You also run into similar issues with gaming.  Sometimes the servers used for multiplayer games are severely restricted and do not allow 32 bit emulation to be installed.  So, the server side portion will have to be written in 64 bit.  This is not a bad thing, as the server side of a multi player game will often exceed the memory limitation of 32 bit.

Mike Lobanovsky

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Re: O2 vs. FB
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2014, 08:30:13 PM »
@John

Now that I've spent some hours surfing the net freshening up what's been done lately to improve Linux graphics in general and Wine's graphics in particular, I do have to admit there are some important improvements that may finally move Linux further along its way to becoming a sterling graphics OS. But again, that won't be so much the community's merit with their Gallium3D/Mesa concept and home-brewed Nouveau drivers but rather a gesture of goodwill on behalf of ATi and nVidia brands that have either partially released their HW documentation to public or have even gone as far as develop proprietary (i.e. first-class, top-quality) drivers for the *nix family. And all this despite Linus' humble middle-fingering and cursing nVidia in public! Is that the only manner in which Linux can pave its way unto the future?

@Kuron

Will you pardon my boldness but your messages do not sound to me as if you ever were a Windows fan or advocate, neither here nor elsewhere. I don't intend to be impolite or sound as if I were one - it might simply be a slip caused by my not being a native English speaker - but I'm a little taken aback by reading such messages on a forum dedicated to a language that's being developed under Windows, for Windows (at least for now), and with Windows instruments.

Now please have a look at this quotation from the Wine HQ site:

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The goal of Wine is a full reimplementation of the Windows API which will make Windows unnecessary.

Sounds very far-fetched and pathetic, doesn't it? Unnecessary? I don't think so. MS Windows needs not reimplement somebody else's API's to stay alive and kicking - it already is what it is and will hopefully continue to be. Do you really think the stupidity of just one CEO in such a colossal corporate entity as MS might affect its financial state or perspectives too seriously? There may be millions of Linux fans but do not forget there already are over one and a half billion (!) PC's installed all over the world. How does that compare, do you think? And isn't it the real reason why Torvalds always looks so goosey in public?

Now gentlemen, I don't think our (counter)propaganda is really helping the project in any way. I'm perfectly sure Charles already has his own vision of O2's future and is all set to follow it even if somebody is not totally satisfied with his approaches. Let him be the leader here. Most of us seem to have their own pet project and we'd rather concentrate on that one.

JRS

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Re: O2 vs. FB
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2014, 08:51:34 PM »
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I don't think so. MS Windows needs not reimplement somebody else's API's to stay alive and kicking - it already is what it is and will hopefully continue to be.

The most important aspect of Wine is that it's open source and contributed to by some of the best out there. If you see some car swerving down the road, are you going to stick your thumb out hoping for a ride? Microsoft has a lot of damage control to deal with and it's future is uncertain. IMHO

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but I'm a little taken aback by reading such messages on a forum dedicated to a language that's being developed under Windows, for Windows (at least for now), and with Windows instruments.

This thread is on the Open Forum board. I started this thread asking for a honest / open discussion about what is the best avenue for a programmer wishing to contribute to a BASIC project. We have both FreeBASIC and PowerBASIC floundering with no direction and slipping further behind as 64 bit becomes the main stay. Wouldn't it be great to flip the bird to all of those preaching that BASIC is dead by pulling together and making O2 a kick ass compiler supported by a vibrant community bringing the fun back to BASIC programming on a modern day scale?
« Last Edit: January 04, 2014, 09:10:05 PM by John »

Mike Lobanovsky

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Re: O2 vs. FB
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2014, 09:16:54 PM »
John, Wine has been around for over a decade and it still only aspires to implement WinAPI. In the meantime, MS have released at least 5 pukka products. There's nothing worse in this life than to be waiting and to be trying to catch up. Wine will be an eternal Jew on its never ending road to catch up with the leader. It's a loser project by concept. It's a mere emulator however enthusiastic its fans may be.

Open-sourcing is fun. But all fun stops immediately when the alarm clock rings and we stand up, dress up and go out to work. People must be well-motivated otherwise they are just a bunch of non-productive, sometimes counter-productive, kids. Intel, ATi, nVidia, Microsoft etc. are for real. Wine and Linux are for fun. Unprofessional, destructive in attitudes, irresponsible and hence hasardous to technological progress.

JRS

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Re: O2 vs. FB
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2014, 09:25:55 PM »
The hard part for you to swallow Mike is that Windows is no longer a monopoly or the most popular OS. I thought it was rather kind of the Linux community to open their arms accepting Windows applications as one of their own and make the appropriate accommodations to do so. I hope to adopt you into the Linux family some day.  :D

Mike Lobanovsky

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Re: O2 vs. FB
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2014, 09:26:44 PM »
You're too fast to edit you messages. ;)

Firstly, my words were addressed to Kuron. I have absolutely no illusions as to what your own standpoint on the subject matter is. ;) Secondly, open-foruming shouldn't make us forget where we are and what we are here for. When in Rome, do as the Romans do. And lastly, there's no reason to expect that every Windows BASIC developer around would suddenly drop his own projects that he's spent years on in favor of someone else's project being advertised by the most notorious anti-Windows advocate on the net. :D

JRS

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Re: O2 vs. FB
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2014, 09:36:31 PM »
Don't feel Windows abused. I feel the same way about Apple's closed source products as well. Open source allows anyone to change the way it is. Try running that concept up the MS pole.




Mike Lobanovsky

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Re: O2 vs. FB
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2014, 09:46:50 PM »
Oh John, please don't touch my wounds. Apple's GUI is so charming and so bloody expensive! :)

Charles Pegge

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Re: O2 vs. FB
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2014, 04:15:13 AM »
Very interesting discussion, gentlemen.

I think Microsoft is too big to fail anytime soon. But it may go the way of IBM, and merge into the background of our hi-tech infrastructure.

I have a concern with Android and the tablet market. There appears to be a very strong Java lock-in with the SDK, and to make any headway with significant App development, one is obliged to use their system, confining developers to the upper levels. Using the lower-level NDK is not encouraged. It feels like fait-accompli, for other languages, unless they can sit on top of the Java beast, and perform some higher level role.

Kuron

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Re: O2 vs. FB
« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2014, 07:40:56 AM »
Will you pardon my boldness but your messages do not sound to me as if you ever were a Windows fan or advocate, neither here nor elsewhere. I don't intend to be impolite or sound as if I were one - it might simply be a slip caused by my not being a native English speaker - but I'm a little taken aback by reading such messages on a forum dedicated to a language that's being developed under Windows, for Windows (at least for now), and with Windows instruments.
So a Windows fan/user is only somebody who shares your exact same beliefs? 

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MS Windows needs not reimplement somebody else's API's to stay alive and kicking - it already is what it is and will hopefully continue to be.
Given Microsoft's history there is no need to, they just outright buy it or steal it.  When caught stealing it, they either pay off who they stole it from, or in rare instances like the fiasco with Stacker, MS removes the stolen technology and has to issue a new version of their OS.  Microsoft can claim the original MS BASIC as their own, but that is it.  They have never been about innovation, they have always been about rushing a product to market any way they can.  MS DOS was pre-existing and outright bought.  The non-NT versions of Windows were based on DOS.  The NT kernel was developed by IBM, Microsoft and DEC.  DirectX was an existing technology that was outright bought.  You can literally keep going down the list, even to minuscule parts of Windows like the CD/DVD burning.   

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Do you really think the stupidity of just one CEO in such a colossal corporate entity as MS might affect its financial state or perspectives too seriously?
Given that under Ballmer, Microsoft lost $34 billion dollars in a single day, I would have to say a definitive yes.  Under Ballmer, Microsoft also lost the spot as the #1 tech company (in revenue) to Apple.

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There's nothing worse in this life than to be waiting and to be trying to catch up.
Unfortunately because Microsoft keeps trying to play catch up and uses a "me too" development philosophy to do so, this is why MS is in the current state it is in.  MS has not learned from their mistakes, but they have been playing "me too" almost since their inception.

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There may be millions of Linux fans but do not forget there already are over one and a half billion (!) PC's installed all over the world.
And the vast majority of those PCs are installed and used in a corporate environment.  Since most development for corporate is done "in-house", that is really of no benefit to indie developers.  You also need to remember that PC has no real definition and certainly not a marketable definition.  In 2008, Microsoft was still selling licenses of Windows 3.11 because it was still in wide use on commercial aircraft.  Although the computers on these commercial aircraft were PCs, there is not much of a market for indie developers and 16-bit software.  So even the definition of PC has no usable standardization.  Heck, you still have many manufacturing companies plugging along with PCs running DOS.

The statistics you really want are how many XP and above systems exist in the consumer market, those would be legitimate statistics for indie developers.  However, you can't even get accurate numbers of how many copies of an OS has been sold as MS reports the number of copies sold to stores and OEMs, not how many copies actually get bought by a consumer and actually used by a consumer.

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Most of us seem to have their own pet project and we'd rather concentrate on that one.
Some of us are here because we believe in Charles' vision for O2 and want to explore it further and support it if we can.  Supporting indie BASICs is a good thing.  There are not many usable BASICs left. 

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I think Microsoft is too big to fail anytime soon. But it may go the way of IBM, and merge into the background of our hi-tech infrastructure.
Microsoft will be around in the corporate sector for decades.  And Microsoft will never fail as long as Linux is around, especially when it comes to the mobile market.  As the Android market continues to grow, Microsoft will continue to make money off of the sale of each Android device due to patent licensing.  Last year, Microsoft brought in almost 4 billion dollars just from Android device sales.

I would like to say Microsoft will always be around in the consumer market, but Microsoft is struggling to overcome the changes in the consumer market from desktops to laptops and tablets and other mobile devices.  Moves like buying Nokia is not helping.  It is insane to buy a company that lost 40% of its revenue in a three month period.  Of course then you look at why Nokia collapsed it was because they replaced their Symbian OS with the Windows Phone OS.  Nokia signed that deal in 2011 and was the #1 mobile phone provider.  Thanks to Windows Phone OS, Nokia had fallen to #10 by the time Microsoft bought them.  It was an engineered collapse and now MS has the technology to once again "me too" after Apple and bring their own phone hardware to the market, even though the market has shown they have no interest in Windows Phone OS and will avoid it like the plague.  With moves like this, it is hard to have faith in the future of Microsoft in the consumer market.




JRS

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Re: O2 vs. FB
« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2014, 10:03:16 AM »
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I have a concern with Android and the tablet market.

You and most carriers. Android is a Google controlled market. Phone carriers are joining forces and signing up for Ubuntu Touch. This allows carries to define their own markets rather than being Google centric. HTML5 and Qt QML are the UI options at this time. The Cordova Ubuntu runtime component gives HTML5 access to mobile hardware features. (touch, camera, ...) SB has a much better chance in this environment than a JNI extension to the Android Java VM.

Charles Pegge

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Re: O2 vs. FB
« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2014, 10:28:01 AM »
That looks a lot better, John. Are we back to unconstrained C binaries on these Ubuntu-based platforms?

QML sounds a good idea. Markups seem to be the best way to deal with the user interface.

JRS

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Re: O2 vs. FB
« Reply #28 on: January 05, 2014, 10:55:37 AM »
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But Ubuntu isn’t limited to HTML5. Native apps are blazingly fast, taking advantage of the full capabilities of the phone’s processor and graphics hardware. And a mobile SDK does most of the work for you, giving you an Ubuntu look and feel.

I would say Ubuntu Touch is Android without the Java VM front end. There is no X11 GUI so HTML5 and Qt/QML is your portal to the user. Using shared objects and standard Linux libraries (cURL, SQLite, XML parsers, ...) will be much easier to port to uTouch. I'm gearing up for this and hopefully my www.utouch.info URL will have purpose someday.

« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 02:38:47 PM by John »

Mike Lobanovsky

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Re: O2 vs. FB
« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2014, 08:45:02 PM »
So a Windows fan/user is only somebody who shares your exact same beliefs?
If you want to know my opinion - yessir, absolutely! One is supposed to earn the right to call oneself a fan in a sense like being ready to defend one's sweet home at the far approaches against no matter what or who. Or like belonging to a soccer club fan gang in the European soccer fan subculture if you want. Or like shooting unauthorized trespassers dead on private property without prior notice if you would prefer some American flavor. That's where I belong.

My perception of a casual user is a servile white collar. Otherwise one may only look like a stray one-timer or a double agent on an enemy territory to me.

I have lived up to such standards my whole life and I have never felt any regret or remorse. And if I only could hope for a second chance, I would've certainly followed the same way. If you don't believe a man of my age can really uphold such views then ask John to hear his variation of the same song, Linux-style.

Given Microsoft's history there is no need to, they just outright buy it or steal it.
...
Microsoft keeps trying to play catch up and uses a "me too" development philosophy...
"Me too"-ing, outright buying, spying, bribing, stealing, and killing is what has made both the US and Russia superpowers unrivaled. And this is what is called "aggressive marketing policies", "venturing", and "minimization of risks by investment diversification" in civil parlance.

Common people live by putting away cent by cent or penny by penny or kopek by kopek to save for a decent pension in their declining years and noone can blame them for that. Enterprising folks live by different standards conventionally accepted in their universe of aggressive money-making and noone can blame them for that either, except the law. It is ridiculous to hear common people giving advice to multi-billion wealths how these are supposed to dispose of their assets.

Given that under Ballmer, Microsoft lost $34 billion dollars in a single day, I would have to say a definitive yes.
Let me assure you such risks are always prognosticated, evaluated, planned, and even insured against where necessary. As long as the company remains profitable on the whole, the losses you're talking about are a mere aeriform "lost profit" rather than tangible "return on investment" losses. Go ask BG if he's poorer or richer this time in 2014. I guess the question would be rhetorical as the answer is self-evident.

Now once again, gentlemen, how is it all supposed to relate to OxygenBasic, please?