Oxygen Basic
Information => Open Forum => Topic started by: JRS on January 03, 2014, 01:04:13 PM
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(http://files.allbasic.info/O2/fbo2.png)
I would like to start an open discussion about the benefits, limitations and resources behind both OxygenBasic and FreeBASIC. I'm hoping for a frank discussion on what is the best use of a contributor's time if their interests were a BASIC compiler. Would time be better spent updating FreeBASIC from its DOS/Win32 roots or help the O2 project along with documentation and organizing the many examples so others can use it? Below is my +/- list for both compilers.
FreeBASIC
- A mature BASIC compiler with over 10 year in the making with a once large user base when QB was king and a migration path to Windows.
- The original author (Victor) has moved on and is only monitoring the project. His last effort was a C emitter that generates human unreadable C source code.
- Even though a Linux port is distributed, it's 32 bit only and very buggy on that platform. Trying to get it to run on 64 bit Linux (with 32 bit libraries) is a waste of time.
- FB uses custom include files that always seem to be out of date or non-existent. Maintaining them is like pulling teeth.
- The forum is run like a club for QB programmers that are grumpy old farts that are rude and act like thugs. There is no sense of a future lingering.
- Just like Rapid-Q, I wish somebody would just shoot it and put it out of it's misery.
OxygenBasic
- O2 is a Charles Pegge production and few can take credit for moving this outstanding open source project along.
- Like with any new language (BASIC or not) good documentation or a broad set of example code is crucial to attract new interest to the project. I feel this is one of the biggest problems with O2 and the easiest to solve.
- O2 is the only PE and JIT BASIC compiler out there. It is known to compile both 32 and 64 Windows code.
- Charles is actively developing a C emitter which is feeding his C BASIC open source project.
- With O2, a bugs life is short followed by a fix before you can come up with a workaround.
- Charles's OxygenBasic has helped both thinBASIC and ScriptBasic in a BIG way giving the idea of using interpreters a second look.
Your thoughts?
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John,
I'm the newest member here and it may seem not very becoming to me to be the first one to respond. But I can't help it because in my opinion there are too many questionable starting points to launch such a discussion however timely or pressing it might look to somebody.
1. I'm not sure the topic is formulated correctly. IMO there should be no versus'es sought in such pairs as PowerBASIC and thinBasic, FreeBasic and OxygenBasic, or even Emergence Basic and AurelBasic, for all I care. The former is a parent to the latter; a child depends on its parent at least in its green years and there's no reason to expect a language developer's unfaithfullness to his preferred pragramming tool that has already brought about so much joy and satisfaction to him.
So long as Charles continues to use FreeBasic to develop OxygenBasic to our common satisfaction, both Charles and his peers are expected to remain loyal to FreeBasic no matter what others say, and I find it only natural.
Provisions are being made by Charles actively to move on to another more promising development platform in due time. As soon as it happens, we might discuss its pluses and minuses but even then, noone should expect Charles to become unloyal or unthankful to the language that helped get his own project up and running.
2. Quotations from a man that can't be sure where to start with a BASIC (?) can't be taken seriously as a ground for initiating an epoch-making discussion among BASIC language developers. I think I'm already standing a little farther ahead than that along the line of my programmatic hominization. Talking about "noise" in an Intel chip is pure nonsense pretty much as is his refusal to buy a 64-bit Intel chip in an era when there are already generations of young people that have never seen a fossil 32-bit Intel chip with their own eyes.
3. FreeBasic is a free-for-all product and as long as there is at least one dedicated someone remaining that's happy with what he has, the language has the right to live and in the eyes of that someone the rest of the world may go to hell. That's the beauty and the tragedy of all public open-source projects in the world. Irresponsibility is their epitaph. And do not say you weren't warned in time; you were, just re-read their licenses.
4. Header files is a curse unbegun of 99.99 per cent of all existing languages. But who said I don't know what I'm calling in my program and how I should do it? One very wise FBSL user once said: "How much do we want our data to be refined for us?". I shall be grateful to this wisard (he's my elder) to the day I die. Now how about a pinch of FBSL for a change? It doesn't use function declarations or header files at all and has been around doing that for a dozen years already. (http://www.fbsl.net/phpbb2/images/smilies/icon_ml_yum.gif)
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Thanks for your feedback Mike. My goal with this thread to not to reinforce loyalties. If I were a programmer looking for an open source BASIC compiler and an active community, what would be a better use of my time? The real question is if FreeBASIC is too old to save or is QxygenBasic too open ended to contain? I view O2 much the same way I view gcc. It has a lot of ways of using it but requires additional libraries and a framework to be usable.
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Writing documentation is a hateful yoke for any creative programmer. Even simple annotation of own code is regarded as unproductive and unpardonnable waste of time. I'm no exception to this rule myself. (http://www.fbsl.net/phpbb2/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif)
I used to know only one person in my life who broke the rule and that was Mr.Robert Wishlaw of BCX. BCX Help is still the only BASIC reference manual I consider spotless and irreproachable even though many other aspects of BCX community left much to be desired when I quit about a decade ago. Mr.Wishlaw was a perfect BCX annalist and book keeper and he himself remained a very talented programmer at that.
A programming language help writer must himself be a guru in the language he annotates. He must also be a native and learned English speaker. Public-access wikis are a nightmare.
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I think Peter Verhas takes the prize for authors that have documented their own work. Not only did he create the user docs but a complete set of developer docs for embedding and extending the BASIC. English isn't Peter's native language (one of a dozen) and I'm still amazed how well it turned out. I need to give it a freshening up for the SB 2.2 release.
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FreeBASIC is Born
FreeBASIC was first programmed in VB-DOS, with the goal of compiling itself. Because of this, both its syntax and runtime library are designed to emulate
QB's syntax and runtime as far as it is practical in a 32-bit Windows environment. For the most part, the two dialects are extremely similar, and most code can be ported with little or no modification, though in some cases routines reliant on 16-bit DOS must be rewritten. The resulting compiler shares a greater similarity to QB than any compiler on the market, including Visual Basic.
Because of its open source, its well-written code and its similarity to QB, FreeBASIC has become popular among the "QB Community" and its boundaries continue to grow as it receives more attention and gathers more features that promise to move BASIC into the future.
Back to the FreeBASIC discussion. Is porting user applications to C in a obfuscated format still FreeBASIC? What makes this any different from BCX or BaCon? Is there any plans to port FreeBASIC (written in itself) to Linux native or is that an impossible dream? Just like PowerBASIC that has patched its way along to stay relevant, is a rewrite to do it right worth the effort? Doesn't it make sense to support a BASIC compiler project that has an active author and not something that lingers after the author leaves or dies? I see no downsides to everyone pulling together to make O2 the next gold standard of BASIC compilers.
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For those Windows users that would like to try Linux but don't want to leave their favorite BASIC compiler behind, all works well under Wine. I installed the latest FBide from SourceForge using the .exe installation that also installs FreeBASIC. I wondered if I could compile the Oxygen.dll (in FB source) and it seems to have worked. It's even 13 KB smaller than the original. I have attached it if you want to give it a try. I replaced the oxygen.dll with the one I built and then tried to compile and run the glwindow example (O2 source) using the new oxygen.dll.
(http://files.allbasic.info/O2/o2fbide.png)
(http://files.allbasic.info/O2/o2glwin.png)
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1. Bob Zale was much, much younger when he ventured into Turbo Basic that has later on evolved into PowerBASIC the way we know it now - an industry standard BASIC with an extremely serious and professional user base.
This however didn't help him any. Bob is no more and PowerBASIC is likely to follow unless there are miracles still in stock for this ungodly and sinful world.
We're already one foot in the grave, every single one of us still tangible on forums like this. We may fail to make it if only out of sheer senility. (http://www.fbsl.net/phpbb2/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif)
2. Looking into the future optimistically doesn't necessarily mean being unfaithful to Windows, at least to me. Being under Wine or ReactOS is essentially pretending to be under Windows. Then why don't you just install a decent version of MS Windows on your station natively, John, and enjoy it in its full glory instead?
Shorter binaries may simply mean poorer functionality of the environment. However hard the community tries, Wine (and ReactOS, for that matter) will always remain an unauthorised clone, a ghost lagging far behind the original.
We are not trying to emulate Linux under MS Windows, John, so why should the Linux community be so stubborn in trying to emulate Windows? Or is it still a manifestation of latent inferiority complex?
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I have XP in a VirtualBox that until recently ran fine until the last MS update. (problem mentioned on the JRS forum) I also have Windows 7 64 bit installed in a separate partition. Why should I leave the environment I prefer and develop in just to run O2, FB, PB, ... applications that compile and run fine under Wine. Wine is less of an emulator than SysWOW64 is. If you need .NET under Linux, MONO seems to work with the Windows .NET apps I've tested. I also run all of the DOS BASIC's (PBDOS, QB 1.1, 4.5, 7.1, VBDOS) under dosemu that runs DOS better than DOSBox. (uses hardware visualization) My point is no reason to leave the farm.
Shorter binaries may simply mean poorer functionality of the environment.
That statement proves you're an interpreter author. :D
Note - Please excuse the slow access times to the site. I thought we had it fixed with a resolver needing to be rebooted. Seems the problem has returned. My hosting provider will resolve the resolver issue in the morning.
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Yup, the lag as seen here may be as bad as 30 to 60 seconds depending on the action taken; very annoying...
My point is no reason to leave the farm.
Leaving the farm is exactly what you've been lulling us into one way or another for all the years that I've been watching your activity on the net. (http://www.fbsl.net/phpbb2/images/smilies/icon_ml_winkwink.gif)
That statement proves you're an interpreter author.
Not only that, John, not only that as you may see re-reading the annotations to FBSL's constituent languages. (http://www.fbsl.net/phpbb2/images/smilies/icon_ml_yum.gif)
As for the emulators, don't overestimate them as a whole and especially their graphics capabilities in particular. There are lots of Linux forks where hardware acceleration still remains beyond reach. What may seem acceptable for simple plotting with common BASIC graphics is certainly unacceptable for developing professional software. Leading video HW vendors co-operate with leading graphics OS development teams to provide HW-accelerated drivers but are reluctant to do that for minor OS'es and clones. Neither do they disclose sufficient information for 3rd-party devs to do that out-of-house. Reverse-engineering seems the only way out but it slows down minor OS development for years and in the meantime confines their graphics capabilities to VESA solutions only.
Developing serious graphics applications in an emulator is ridiculous. Emulators are for fun while genuine OS software with hardware virtualization officially supported where applicable is for real.
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Like with any new language (BASIC or not) good documentation or a broad set of example code is crucial to attract new interest to the project. I feel this is one of the biggest problems with O2 and the easiest to solve.
This is part of why I am here. My own project recently collapsed due to financial reasons. I have spent several months working on it in one way or another, whether working on game engine ideas or working on ideas for code examples or working on preliminary documentation. So, rather than let things go to waste, I am considering jumping behind another project. CBASIC is extremely intriguing, and as I told you before I really wish it had been around when I used to teach BASIC. O2 is very interesting, but I also realize it is a very young language. For me, a language needs to support 64-bit for Windows and it needs to be cross-platform and at least support Linux. It also needs to be fast and produce tiny executable and be stable. As soon as I can secure a new laptop, I will be putting O2 and CBASIC through the paces.
Talking about "noise" in an Intel chip is pure nonsense pretty much as is his refusal to buy a 64-bit Intel chip in an era when there are already generations of young people that have never seen a fossil 32-bit Intel chip with their own eyes.
If you want to get technical, those generations of young people have never seen a fossil 64-bit Intel chip with their own eyes, either. Intel's 64-bit chips were atrocious and were all-but abandoned by the industry as the industry jumped behind AMD's 64-bit architecture. Intel caved and now the 64-bit Intel chips we are all using are largely based on AMD's 64-bit technology.
We are not trying to emulate Linux under MS Windows,
Windows users are too busy emulating Windows on Windows. ;)
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Developing serious graphics applications in an emulator is ridiculous. Emulators are for fun while genuine OS software with hardware virtualization officially supported where applicable is for real.
OpenGL and ODBC are using native drivers under Wine. There maybe other services Wine does native that I'm unaware of. It's good enough to keep me from booting another partition or firing up a VirtualBox just to run a Windows app. There are only a couple DLLs I can't use from Windows if I run into a compatibility issue. Wines set of DLLs seem to work fine for most applications I run. Wine is constantly being updated when Linux does its update. With XP's funeral just months away, Wine is looking sweeter to a lot of users that can't swallow what Microsoft is now serving.
Yup, the lag as seen here may be as bad as 30 to 60 seconds depending on the action taken; very annoying...
I'm thinking of switching O2 to another IP. Every time the resolver has a memory overload, this site (IP) always seems to get hit where the other sites I host are fine. I keep a close eye on the sites I host so problems don't linger for long.
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...For me, a language needs to support 64-bit for Windows and it needs to be cross-platform and at least support Linux...
...Windows users are too busy emulating Windows on Windows. ;)...
Hehe, I know you're a seasoned Linux advocate as much as a renowned Windows adversary. (http://www.fbsl.net/phpbb2/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif) Let me point out however that in my opinion, hardware virtualization of Windows XP under Windows 7 was a rather user-friendly and well-weighted solution implemented in the younger OS with respect to its elder and still extremely popular predecessor with an enormous code base in existence. Needless to say, both of them belong to the same brand. Hence we have never been, and still aren't, emulating anything; whenever we prefer to do so, we're using what's been designed especially for us and what's rightfully ours. Naturally, in exchange for our money as everybody's work should be adequately paid for.
Being a devoted MS Windows advocate, I can only wish minor OS'es all the best in their aspiration to catch up with the industry leader with at least some such manifestations of equal user-friendliness.
If you want to get technical...
Yes, I know the technical side of the story very well. Microlithography has been my bread for a very long period in my professional life. And I see nothing unusual or disgraceful in Intel's timely decision to switch to an alternative technology and polish it to perfection where AMD CPU's of compatible process geometries and clock frequencies were left far behind in terms of power consumption, die sizes, working temperatures, and throughput.
... Wine is looking sweeter to a lot of users ...
The key word here is a lot of. The key word when talking Windows is an overwhelming majority of.
OpenGL ... are using native drivers under Wine.
Sorry John but this is not so. Wine's OpenGL drivers are a wrapper around MS Windows DirectX. In other words, MS were generous enough to help their little bro (I'm talking about slack-baked graphical Linux here) out with some solutions that would lead it out of the dark of reverse engineering and VESA manipulations.
To sum it up, my point is as follows:
1. Oxygen Basic is Charles Pegge's prerogative until someone else decides to spawn their own fork and do with it whatever they see fit as is customary to open source projects on the net.
2. It's totally Charles Pegge's prerogative what programming instruments to use and what bitnesses and platforms to cover and in what order of priorities too as far as his own fork (or original, for that matter) is concerned. Should he even decide to confine Oxygen Basic as we know it to 32- and 64-bit Windows only then so be it.
3. Charles Pegge is a high-class professional and as such he is unlikely to base his decisions on, or be motivated by, some unenlightened judgements of unknown individuals on far-away forums.
4. There's yet too little practical support from the community to Charles Pegge as the only developer of Oxygen Basic to date, and I think any undue parallelism or perpendicularism will do no good. What he might need now most of all may be just loyalty and faith. At least this is what I know by my own experience.
Dixi.
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Sorry John but this is not so. Wine's OpenGL drivers are a wrapper around MS Windows DirectX.
OpenGL and ODBC are using native drivers under Wine
Not true. Windows OpenGL is not being emulated under Wine. DirectX is processed (via DLLs) the same way it would under Windows. Please review this LINK (https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/wine) for more details.
Wine is a compatibility layer capable of running Microsoft Windows applications on Unix-like operating systems. Programs running in Wine act as native programs would, without the performance/memory penalties of an emulator.
Myth Wine is not a "native" way to run a program and therefore inferior.
It is true that Wine is not a "native" way to run a program which is designed to run under Windows(tm). It is a way to run software designed for Windows(tm) on a different Operating System. This is useful in situations where one is unable or unwilling to run a Windows(tm) operating system. Cost, security requirements, and personal choice are some possible reasons for this to occur. Claims that software which is not run in a "native" environment is inherently inferior to software which is run in a "native" environment are spurious.
Software (i.e. Wine) is not inferior by virtue of not being written by Microsoft (native). One may use words such as "genuine" to perpetuate such a myth, but it is not something that most users care about. Most users care about being able to run a variety of software, of their choosing, which Wine lets them do.
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Hehe, I know you're a seasoned Linux advocate as much as a renowned Windows adversary.
You have that backwards. I am a Linux newbie and life-long Windows user and supporter since its inception. I also worked for Microsoft at one point after I left HP. I am just an honest Windows user which often puts me at odds with the Windows fanboys over the past 29 years. This last sentence is not directed at you, it is just a generalized statement. I am NOT calling you a fanboy or implying you are dishonest. However, many of the fanboys of any OS are indeed brutally dishonest, and we have all encountered those types. Just because one is honest about the faults of an OS does not make one an adversary. ;) Quite the opposite. Because of my love for Windows, this is why I have been so upset over the past few years about some bone-headed moves Microsoft made under the reign of Ballmer, that have seriously damaged Windows.
Let me point out however that in my opinion, hardware virtualization of Windows XP under Windows 7 was a rather user-friendly and well-weighted solution implemented in the younger OS with respect to its elder and still extremely popular predecessor with an enormous code base in existence. Needless to say, both of them belong to the same brand. Hence we have never been, and still aren't, emulating anything; whenever we prefer to do so, we're using what's been designed especially for us and what's rightfully ours. Naturally, in exchange for our money as everybody's work should be adequately paid for.
I was not referring to XP Mode. I was referring to the vast majority of Windows 7/8 users having to resort to emulation to run the vast majority of Windows software.
As you point out, Windows is the younger OS and will always be playing catch up, so it is really not fair to ever compare Windows to Linux. Heck, the biggest advancement in Vista was UAC which is something Unix had in 1969.
Being a devoted MS Windows advocate, I can only wish minor OS'es all the best in their aspiration to catch up with the industry leader with at least some such manifestations of equal user-friendliness.
Unfortunately, last year saw Windows damn-near dethroned and become an alternate OS in the consumer market (still top dog in the business market (except for the server market)) as consumers moved to tablets and other mobile devices, the majority of which are using an OS derived from Linux. Even one of the biggest names in the PC gaming industry invested millions of dollars to move to Linux, which was my wake up call that I seriously need to start learning Linux and look into supporting it instead of bashing it.
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as consumers moved to tablets and other mobile devices, the majority of which are using an OS derived from Linux.
Microsoft couldn't picked a worse time to fail. The economy was in the toilet and no one was doing much to upgrading the family PC running XP. Consumers realized that they really don't need a laptop or a PC to send e-mail and browse the net and can do that from the phone/tablet. As Microsoft fumbles for direction they decided to cut the heads off the majority of the consumer user base by retiring XP while providing no definitive 64 bit direction. So what does a consumer do. Spend $400 for a nice tablet and shop till they drop for free apps on Google Play or spend $1000-$1500 (hardware, office, ...) on a laptop or PC? I don't consider myself a PC user/consumer and only service that market. Linux is the neutral and omni directional OS that is currently the most used OS on the planet. (surpassing MS long ago) Most of the Linux OS installs are PC appliance based (phones, tablets, game consoles, ...) and server based. (90+ percent of that market) leaving the desktop up for grabs. I really don't think Microsoft gives a rats ass about the PC desktop/laptop users any more. They are even trying to move their developer customers to the cloud. ("N") I personally stop using desktop PC's about 5 years ago. My main development box is a Toshiba laptop. (ext. screen, keyboard and mouse when at my desk) I have gotten rid of all my old Dells and run EC2 instances for OSs I don't use on a daily basis.
Ballmer & Bush are classic examples of near fatal mistakes.
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Microsoft couldn't picked a worse time to fail.
What was really sad is MS thinking they could be successful with Windows 8 for tablets when MS has a well-documented 10 year history of failure in the tablet market. Ballmer didn't learn from the mistakes of Gates.
As to Windows in general... Here are the December 2013 stats...
Windows 7 64 bit 50.76%
Windows 7 32 bit 12.59%
Windows 8 64 bit 10.56%
Windows 8 32 bit 00.58%
Windows 8.1 64 bit 08.53%
Windows 8.1 32 bit 00.30%
Virtually nobody is using the 32 bit editions of the last three versions of Windows. Everybody is running the 64 bit versions. Unfortunately, they are being forced to run legacy 32 bit applications under emulation (WoW64) because developers have simply refused to support 64 bit even when the hardware and operating systems and the consumers have all moved to 64 bit.
What even makes it worse is some versions of Windows simply do not support 32 bit emulation by default. 32 bit emulation is optional on Windows 2008 R2 and Windows 2012 and emulation for 32 bit legacy apps is not always installed. Due to the restrictions on some server environments, 32 bit emulation can't be installed. Part of why I had to ditch PowerBASIC for contract work is because I was doing contract work for a major defense contractor and due to the security in place, there was not any 32 bit emulation installed on their servers and it could not be installed. I had to rewrite a couple of PowerBASIC applications in PureBasic so I could compile 64 bit versions. You also run into similar issues with gaming. Sometimes the servers used for multiplayer games are severely restricted and do not allow 32 bit emulation to be installed. So, the server side portion will have to be written in 64 bit. This is not a bad thing, as the server side of a multi player game will often exceed the memory limitation of 32 bit.
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@John
Now that I've spent some hours surfing the net freshening up what's been done lately to improve Linux graphics in general and Wine's graphics in particular, I do have to admit there are some important improvements that may finally move Linux further along its way to becoming a sterling graphics OS. But again, that won't be so much the community's merit with their Gallium3D/Mesa concept and home-brewed Nouveau drivers but rather a gesture of goodwill on behalf of ATi and nVidia brands that have either partially released their HW documentation to public or have even gone as far as develop proprietary (i.e. first-class, top-quality) drivers for the *nix family. And all this despite Linus' humble middle-fingering and cursing nVidia in public! Is that the only manner in which Linux can pave its way unto the future?
@Kuron
Will you pardon my boldness but your messages do not sound to me as if you ever were a Windows fan or advocate, neither here nor elsewhere. I don't intend to be impolite or sound as if I were one - it might simply be a slip caused by my not being a native English speaker - but I'm a little taken aback by reading such messages on a forum dedicated to a language that's being developed under Windows, for Windows (at least for now), and with Windows instruments.
Now please have a look at this quotation from the Wine HQ site (http://wiki.winehq.org/Debunking_Wine_Myths):
The goal of Wine is a full reimplementation of the Windows API which will make Windows unnecessary.
Sounds very far-fetched and pathetic, doesn't it? Unnecessary? I don't think so. MS Windows needs not reimplement somebody else's API's to stay alive and kicking - it already is what it is and will hopefully continue to be. Do you really think the stupidity of just one CEO in such a colossal corporate entity as MS might affect its financial state or perspectives too seriously? There may be millions of Linux fans but do not forget there already are over one and a half billion (!) PC's installed all over the world. How does that compare, do you think? And isn't it the real reason why Torvalds always looks so goosey in public?
Now gentlemen, I don't think our (counter)propaganda is really helping the project in any way. I'm perfectly sure Charles already has his own vision of O2's future and is all set to follow it even if somebody is not totally satisfied with his approaches. Let him be the leader here. Most of us seem to have their own pet project and we'd rather concentrate on that one. (http://www.fbsl.net/phpbb2/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif)
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I don't think so. MS Windows needs not reimplement somebody else's API's to stay alive and kicking - it already is what it is and will hopefully continue to be.
The most important aspect of Wine is that it's open source and contributed to by some of the best out there. If you see some car swerving down the road, are you going to stick your thumb out hoping for a ride? Microsoft has a lot of damage control to deal with and it's future is uncertain. IMHO
but I'm a little taken aback by reading such messages on a forum dedicated to a language that's being developed under Windows, for Windows (at least for now), and with Windows instruments.
This thread is on the Open Forum board. I started this thread asking for a honest / open discussion about what is the best avenue for a programmer wishing to contribute to a BASIC project. We have both FreeBASIC and PowerBASIC floundering with no direction and slipping further behind as 64 bit becomes the main stay. Wouldn't it be great to flip the bird to all of those preaching that BASIC is dead by pulling together and making O2 a kick ass compiler supported by a vibrant community bringing the fun back to BASIC programming on a modern day scale?
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John, Wine has been around for over a decade and it still only aspires to implement WinAPI. In the meantime, MS have released at least 5 pukka products. There's nothing worse in this life than to be waiting and to be trying to catch up. Wine will be an eternal Jew on its never ending road to catch up with the leader. It's a loser project by concept. It's a mere emulator however enthusiastic its fans may be.
Open-sourcing is fun. But all fun stops immediately when the alarm clock rings and we stand up, dress up and go out to work. People must be well-motivated otherwise they are just a bunch of non-productive, sometimes counter-productive, kids. Intel, ATi, nVidia, Microsoft etc. are for real. Wine and Linux are for fun. Unprofessional, destructive in attitudes, irresponsible and hence hasardous to technological progress.
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The hard part for you to swallow Mike is that Windows is no longer a monopoly or the most popular OS. I thought it was rather kind of the Linux community to open their arms accepting Windows applications as one of their own and make the appropriate accommodations to do so. I hope to adopt you into the Linux family some day. :D
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You're too fast to edit you messages. ;)
Firstly, my words were addressed to Kuron. I have absolutely no illusions as to what your own standpoint on the subject matter is. ;) Secondly, open-foruming shouldn't make us forget where we are and what we are here for. When in Rome, do as the Romans do. And lastly, there's no reason to expect that every Windows BASIC developer around would suddenly drop his own projects that he's spent years on in favor of someone else's project being advertised by the most notorious anti-Windows advocate on the net. :D
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Don't feel Windows abused. I feel the same way about Apple's closed source products as well. Open source allows anyone to change the way it is. Try running that concept up the MS pole.
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Oh John, please don't touch my wounds. Apple's GUI is so charming and so bloody expensive! :)
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Very interesting discussion, gentlemen.
I think Microsoft is too big to fail anytime soon. But it may go the way of IBM, and merge into the background of our hi-tech infrastructure.
I have a concern with Android and the tablet market. There appears to be a very strong Java lock-in with the SDK, and to make any headway with significant App development, one is obliged to use their system, confining developers to the upper levels. Using the lower-level NDK is not encouraged. It feels like fait-accompli, for other languages, unless they can sit on top of the Java beast, and perform some higher level role.
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Will you pardon my boldness but your messages do not sound to me as if you ever were a Windows fan or advocate, neither here nor elsewhere. I don't intend to be impolite or sound as if I were one - it might simply be a slip caused by my not being a native English speaker - but I'm a little taken aback by reading such messages on a forum dedicated to a language that's being developed under Windows, for Windows (at least for now), and with Windows instruments.
So a Windows fan/user is only somebody who shares your exact same beliefs?
MS Windows needs not reimplement somebody else's API's to stay alive and kicking - it already is what it is and will hopefully continue to be.
Given Microsoft's history there is no need to, they just outright buy it or steal it. When caught stealing it, they either pay off who they stole it from, or in rare instances like the fiasco with Stacker, MS removes the stolen technology and has to issue a new version of their OS. Microsoft can claim the original MS BASIC as their own, but that is it. They have never been about innovation, they have always been about rushing a product to market any way they can. MS DOS was pre-existing and outright bought. The non-NT versions of Windows were based on DOS. The NT kernel was developed by IBM, Microsoft and DEC. DirectX was an existing technology that was outright bought. You can literally keep going down the list, even to minuscule parts of Windows like the CD/DVD burning.
Do you really think the stupidity of just one CEO in such a colossal corporate entity as MS might affect its financial state or perspectives too seriously?
Given that under Ballmer, Microsoft lost $34 billion dollars in a single day, I would have to say a definitive yes. Under Ballmer, Microsoft also lost the spot as the #1 tech company (in revenue) to Apple.
There's nothing worse in this life than to be waiting and to be trying to catch up.
Unfortunately because Microsoft keeps trying to play catch up and uses a "me too" development philosophy to do so, this is why MS is in the current state it is in. MS has not learned from their mistakes, but they have been playing "me too" almost since their inception.
There may be millions of Linux fans but do not forget there already are over one and a half billion (!) PC's installed all over the world.
And the vast majority of those PCs are installed and used in a corporate environment. Since most development for corporate is done "in-house", that is really of no benefit to indie developers. You also need to remember that PC has no real definition and certainly not a marketable definition. In 2008, Microsoft was still selling licenses of Windows 3.11 because it was still in wide use on commercial aircraft. Although the computers on these commercial aircraft were PCs, there is not much of a market for indie developers and 16-bit software. So even the definition of PC has no usable standardization. Heck, you still have many manufacturing companies plugging along with PCs running DOS.
The statistics you really want are how many XP and above systems exist in the consumer market, those would be legitimate statistics for indie developers. However, you can't even get accurate numbers of how many copies of an OS has been sold as MS reports the number of copies sold to stores and OEMs, not how many copies actually get bought by a consumer and actually used by a consumer.
Most of us seem to have their own pet project and we'd rather concentrate on that one.
Some of us are here because we believe in Charles' vision for O2 and want to explore it further and support it if we can. Supporting indie BASICs is a good thing. There are not many usable BASICs left.
I think Microsoft is too big to fail anytime soon. But it may go the way of IBM, and merge into the background of our hi-tech infrastructure.
Microsoft will be around in the corporate sector for decades. And Microsoft will never fail as long as Linux is around, especially when it comes to the mobile market. As the Android market continues to grow, Microsoft will continue to make money off of the sale of each Android device due to patent licensing. Last year, Microsoft brought in almost 4 billion dollars just from Android device sales.
I would like to say Microsoft will always be around in the consumer market, but Microsoft is struggling to overcome the changes in the consumer market from desktops to laptops and tablets and other mobile devices. Moves like buying Nokia is not helping. It is insane to buy a company that lost 40% of its revenue in a three month period. Of course then you look at why Nokia collapsed it was because they replaced their Symbian OS with the Windows Phone OS. Nokia signed that deal in 2011 and was the #1 mobile phone provider. Thanks to Windows Phone OS, Nokia had fallen to #10 by the time Microsoft bought them. It was an engineered collapse and now MS has the technology to once again "me too" after Apple and bring their own phone hardware to the market, even though the market has shown they have no interest in Windows Phone OS and will avoid it like the plague. With moves like this, it is hard to have faith in the future of Microsoft in the consumer market.
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I have a concern with Android and the tablet market.
You and most carriers. Android is a Google controlled market. Phone carriers are joining forces and signing up for Ubuntu Touch. This allows carries to define their own markets rather than being Google centric. HTML5 and Qt QML are the UI options at this time. The Cordova Ubuntu runtime component (http://developer.ubuntu.com/apps/cordova/get-started/) gives HTML5 access to mobile hardware features. (touch, camera, ...) SB has a much better chance in this environment than a JNI extension to the Android Java VM.
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That looks a lot better, John. Are we back to unconstrained C binaries on these Ubuntu-based platforms?
QML sounds a good idea. Markups seem to be the best way to deal with the user interface.
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But Ubuntu isn’t limited to HTML5. Native apps are blazingly fast, taking advantage of the full capabilities of the phone’s processor and graphics hardware. And a mobile SDK does most of the work for you, giving you an Ubuntu look and feel.
I would say Ubuntu Touch is Android without the Java VM front end. There is no X11 GUI so HTML5 and Qt/QML is your portal to the user. Using shared objects and standard Linux libraries (cURL, SQLite, XML parsers, ...) will be much easier to port to uTouch. I'm gearing up for this and hopefully my www.utouch.info URL will have purpose someday.
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So a Windows fan/user is only somebody who shares your exact same beliefs?
If you want to know my opinion - yessir, absolutely! One is supposed to earn the right to call oneself a fan in a sense like being ready to defend one's sweet home at the far approaches against no matter what or who. Or like belonging to a soccer club fan gang in the European soccer fan subculture if you want. Or like shooting unauthorized trespassers dead on private property without prior notice if you would prefer some American flavor. That's where I belong.
My perception of a casual user is a servile white collar. Otherwise one may only look like a stray one-timer or a double agent on an enemy territory to me.
I have lived up to such standards my whole life and I have never felt any regret or remorse. And if I only could hope for a second chance, I would've certainly followed the same way. If you don't believe a man of my age can really uphold such views then ask John to hear his variation of the same song, Linux-style. (http://www.fbsl.net/phpbb2/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
Given Microsoft's history there is no need to, they just outright buy it or steal it.
...
Microsoft keeps trying to play catch up and uses a "me too" development philosophy...
"Me too"-ing, outright buying, spying, bribing, stealing, and killing is what has made both the US and Russia superpowers unrivaled. And this is what is called "aggressive marketing policies", "venturing", and "minimization of risks by investment diversification" in civil parlance.
Common people live by putting away cent by cent or penny by penny or kopek by kopek to save for a decent pension in their declining years and noone can blame them for that. Enterprising folks live by different standards conventionally accepted in their universe of aggressive money-making and noone can blame them for that either, except the law. It is ridiculous to hear common people giving advice to multi-billion wealths how these are supposed to dispose of their assets.
Given that under Ballmer, Microsoft lost $34 billion dollars in a single day, I would have to say a definitive yes.
Let me assure you such risks are always prognosticated, evaluated, planned, and even insured against where necessary. As long as the company remains profitable on the whole, the losses you're talking about are a mere aeriform "lost profit" rather than tangible "return on investment" losses. Go ask BG if he's poorer or richer this time in 2014. I guess the question would be rhetorical as the answer is self-evident.
Now once again, gentlemen, how is it all supposed to relate to OxygenBasic, please?
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Now once again, gentlemen, how is it all supposed to relate to OxygenBasic, please?
There is nothing wrong with standing behind what you believe in. You are responsible for the environment you surround yourself with. I just wish you would take an interest in SB for Windows and take Charles's magical DLLC extension module and make SB sing. I'm sure you have your hands full with FBSL so the idea is just a pipe dream.
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If you want to know my opinion - yessir, absolutely!
;D At least you are honest. My loyalty has always been to people, not products. When it comes to products, I simply use the right tool for the right job. Now that we are living in a time where software is expected to be cross-platform, including mobile support, one tool can rarely do everything and you need to use multiple tools. Given that two of the Windows programming languages I use died unexpectedly last year, I am looking for replacements and trying out the various options. I am also interested in CBASIC for educational purposes.
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I am also interested in CBASIC for educational purposes.
Converting Brandy BASIC V to C BASIC might be a worthwhile endeavor and you would be contributing to the C BASIC project.
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Hi John,
I picked up a bug affecting DLLC compiling in very recent updates:
Fixed here:
http://www.oxygenbasic.org/forum/index.php?topic=749
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Thanks!
Any estimate when we might see another C BASIC installment?
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I'd like to look at 64bit Assembly code, see how it goes with GCC. We are going to need it for a few projects. - possible C versions of DLLC.
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Converting Brandy BASIC V to C BASIC might be a worthwhile endeavor and you would be contributing to the C BASIC project.
I was more wanting to use C BASIC as an introduction to C. But it will depend on if they can find some place to host a summer program for the kids. The old community center that used to host the after school program and the summer program, now uses the computer lab for teaching illegal aliens English and computer skills. So for the past two years, there has not been any programming classes for the kids. Either way, I will still be exploring C BASIC. Very intriguing product.
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We are going to need it for a few projects. - possible C versions of DLLC.
Thanks for making my day!
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I hope to adopt you into the Linux family some day. :D
Let your soul rejoice, John! I'm in the process of downloading Ubuntu 13.10. (http://www.fbsl.net/phpbb2/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
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Let your soul rejoice, John! I'm in the process of downloading Ubuntu 13.10.
64 bit?
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Converting Brandy BASIC V to C BASIC might be a worthwhile endeavor and you would be contributing to the C BASIC project.
I was more wanting to use C BASIC as an introduction to C. But it will depend on if they can find some place to host a summer program for the kids. The old community center that used to host the after school program and the summer program, now uses the computer lab for teaching illegal aliens English and computer skills. So for the past two years, there has not been any programming classes for the kids. Either way, I will still be exploring C BASIC. Very intriguing product.
Given that the developer of the one version of Brandy is almost in tears because somebody forked an open source project (very ironic given the history of Brandy), I do not think I would touch Brandy under any circumstances.
Let your soul rejoice, John! I'm in the process of downloading Ubuntu 13.10. (http://www.fbsl.net/phpbb2/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
:)
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Given that the developer of the one version of Brandy is almost in tears because somebody forked an open source project (very ironic given the history of Brandy), I do not think I would touch Brandy under any circumstances.
I was looking forward to David joining the All BASIC Developer forum and helping out with resurrecting the Brandy project. As it turned out David thinks Brandy isn't worth saving and his Windows version is all that counts. He seems to have the same disillusions as Richard (BBC4Windows) has but not trying to make profit off his work. As the original author stated (David Daniels) that Brandy is just an interpreter that uses BBC BASIC syntax and strives to be cross platform. It's not trying to emulate Acorn / RISC-OS processor functionality and only emulating graphic command set attributes for effect.
I'm looking forward once I have Brandy running on Android to extract the SDL graphics functions from Brandy and wrap them in the existing ScriptBasic SDL extension module offing a BBC approach to graphics programming. (sdl.so)
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The old community center ... now uses the computer lab for teaching illegal aliens.
Oh. Too bad...
(http://coolinterestingstuff.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/aliens2.jpg)
(http://www.fbsl.net/phpbb2/images/smilies/icon_ml_noel.gif)
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It truly is. Getting kids into programming is a good thing. ;)
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It truly is. Getting kids into programming is a good thing.
If I can get a couple interactive BASIC languages running on Android, maybe kids will create games and solutions to their math problems rather than text messaging their friends. :o
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@Kuron
You living in Nevada? ;)
@John
Fair enough. :)
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@Kuron
You living in Nevada? ;)
No, not since a child. I was born in Boulder City, Nevada while my father was stationed at Nellis Air Force Base.
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Aha! Area 51! I've hit the right track! :D
Then I'm curious, purely semantically, if there's any difference for the inhabitants of these parts in the States to call humans "illigal immigrants" or "illegal aliens"? There's no mockery meant nor am I fitting either of the titles to myself; just curious.
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Mike: Which term is used is more due to the age of the person using the term. Alien is still the proper legal term, as it goes back to the original Alien and Sedition Acts and was still used in the much later Alien Registration Act. Personally, if somebody is here legally I use immigrant. If somebody is here illegally, I use alien.
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There are also resident aliens, and non-resident aliens, defined by your IRS for tax purposes.
Not to mention extraterrestrial resident aliens.
(http://www.adventuresinpoortaste.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/resident_alien_sitdown.jpg)l
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There are also resident aliens, and non-resident aliens, defined by your IRS for tax purposes.
Yeppers, we have aliens aplenty.
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@Kuron
The big blue ones? :o
Thank you very much for this brief heads-up. I like the way you treat the terms and I guess I should also follow it myself (pls see below). Moreover, it has such deep historical roots. :)
@Charles
I'm a life-long sci-fi fan and so are my sons. Up to this point all aliens, whether resident or non-resident, were exclusively extraterrestrial for me, especially since Area 51. Now I see the US tax system regards them quite differently so that their legality is more dependent on their clean taxation history than their ex(tra)terr(estr|itor)ial origin. From that standpoint, your peaceful picture is quite casual and the word order may be safely changed to 'resident extraterrestrial aliens'. :D
I gather that's one of the strongest points in your democracy model.