PowerBASIC

[Raymond Leech]

The problem with compilers frozen in time is Microsoft at any moment could deprecate a function or API and your software becomes unusable in current OS versions.

Last year I helped a client migrate a 16-bit application that was created with a version of a compiler that hadn't been updated since 1992/93 to a 32-bit version of the same compiler! The 16-bit running under Win7/32 still worked perfectly, but they needed to make the upgrade before deploying Win764 machines. While anything is possible, its just highly unlikely from experience that MS just starts randomly hacking off their core-api.

Drake would be foolish investing any money in PowerBASIC.

Well they obviously already did, they bought the whole thing (fire sale or not).  I hardly think it would have been a worthwhile investment as 'insurance' (as many speculate) if they were already planning to terminate all their PB-produced products anyway. Doesn't add up.

They are moving to the cloud and a web browser interface with their tax software. They are already selling subscriptions to it.

I'm aware of that for several years now, I have clients that use their software both Windows and Web.  But what does that have to do with anything?  Are you saying you know they created their web platform with some other tool (which I've never heard before you said it earlier in this thread)?  I'm interested where you got that information, or if it was just speculation.

The majority of our revenue comes from three larger apps which have web front-ends. That of itself doesn't indicate we used or did not use PB. I wouldn't read to much into 'they created a web app' unless I actually knew first-hand the underlying technology changed.

Interesting that there is no reference to PowerBASIC on the Drake Software site.

Why would you think that was relevant web content for a tax processor? Last time I looked, Intuit didn't list their compiler of choice on the TurboTax site.

Bottom line: PB wouldn't be the first tool we bought that went 5 years without an update but didn't end up dying. It also wouldn't be our first abandon-ware purchase either.

Basically, software's not like bread and milk. It has a longer shelf life than you like to give credit (more like a canned good). It just doesn't suddenly go bad if it wasn't bad to begin with.

[Raymond Leech]

I am not advocating an alternative to 32-bit PB. ... I am advocating an alternative 64-bit implementation semantically and functionally compatible with, if not equal to, the 32-bit prototype.

And I'm obviously willing to investigate those kind of ideas or I wouldn't have come here. I hope you understood my question was rhetorical.

Something that is at least close to source code level compatible is what originally sparked my interest. It would sure minimize the next migration if it can be pulled off.

[chrisc]

@Ray
if You gonna do what you like then tell ur customers to fly kite and see how ur customers reactions, they will make
way to ur competitors within a month. if you intend to keep to ur 16bits then stick to that until ur business becomes
irrelevant. 16bits is dead and 32bits dying maybe ur business is dying too then go along with it

[Raymond Leech]

@Ray
if You gonna do what you like then tell ur customers to fly kite and see how ur customers reactions, they will make
way to ur competitors within a month. if you intend to keep to ur 16bits then stick to that until ur business becomes
irrelevant. 16bits is dead and 32bits dying maybe ur business is dying too then go along with it

ChrisC, no offense but 'swing and a miss'!
- In the example cited, we were the consultant. In our country, consultants usually do what the CLIENT wants, or more specifically, the task for which the client will PAY.  How does it work where you're from?
- It wasn't my 16bits, we migrated the client's 16bits app AWAY from 16bits
- One purpose of mentioning the 16bits app was to point out none of the mythical disappearing API FUD ever materialized in the 30 years since the app was written, its simply an irrational statement given history. When they DID disappear (e.g., no 16bit in 64bit), it was widely published, a HUGE lead time while the 32bit os retained support. The APIs didn't "unexpectedly disappear", they "retired gracefully".
- The second purpose of the mention was to point out the real world doesn't stop because a compiler wasn't updated. That client is one example, and I could list at least a half-dozen more if not a full dozen! Just so you don't misinterpret that statement, let me be more clear: I don't recommend anyone use a 30yo compiler for production, we don't use any 30yo compilers in our products, when we find them we counsel those clients to stop using 30yo compilers, and we get paid very well to help them move on to something less archaic.   
- If you could point me to a Windows 32bit or 64bit application written between 1988 and 1991, then I think I would use that example in the future.  The point of the core APIs still working would be the same without the 16bit distraction.
- Thanks for your concern over our relevance and dying, but I assure you we'll be just fine

[Raymond Leech]

@ChrisC
All that said, I'm always open to hearing other ideas and maybe learning something new. So I'll ask, given a 500k+ line COBOL application written between 1988 and 1991 in a 16bit compiler, how would you have migrated it to a Win64 platform in 60 days? If you have a better idea, I'm all ears!

[Karen Zibowski]

Raymond

So you are saying that we ought to stick to an ancient compiler like PowerBasic despite the fact that
there weren't any development for the last 6 years. Perhaps sinking with it when PowerBasic finally
closes down!

Perhaps you are passionate with PowerBasic, or perhaps that you have a leash on from your master
tying  you down to PowerBasic Inc.  Can't blame you for that!

Perhaps, you should be more forward looking when you are in OxygenBasic forum, embracing 64bits
and dropping 32bits are the things that you ought to do.  Past glamour and past achievements are
just that, they are all in the past and have past their primes so to speak.

[Karen Zibowski]

Raymond

Just for sake of clarification, do you know what's the difference between animals and humans?
The answer is that animals do not have the tools while humans have the tools and able to invent
new tools to do the job.

PowerBasic being an ancient tool, is way past its prime. A business is  liken to going into an ocean
full of sharks, if you are not armed with good tools you will be eaten within seconds and that the
Drakes are not doing anything about it.  No new product announcement and no road map, so
genuine business operations like ours cannot accommodate these kinds of inaction. 

Perhaps you are just a CON man who con others ?

[chrisc]

Ray must have come from undevelop country, i once went to an asian country where people wore no shoes and eat with fingers
Ray maybe lives in a country like that which is stagnant in time and still working in 16bits. By the way, i'm from Canada i doubt we
have apps that still runs in 16bits?  Ur 500K lines cobol prog should be tossed out and need to do a total rewrite and migrate its database to a newer database, maybe need a year to do this

[JRS]

This thread has turned into the best PowerBASIC Forum on the web. No thugs censoring everything they don't like and honest conversations about the reality of BASIC compilers and 64 bits.

[Raymond Leech]

So you are saying that we ought to stick to an ancient compiler like PowerBasic despite the fact that
there weren't any development for the last 6 years.

I actually never suggested that.  Your emotional overreaction, did not change the veracity of my statements.

Perhaps sinking with it when PowerBasic finally closes down!

I actually didn't come here to discuss PB (as expressed by my two examples, neither of which were PB), but I'll entertain you. Your assumptions that we've done and intend to continue doing nothing are factless, but I'll not hold that against you.

In specifics, exactly why would I sink with PB.  IF (big if) PB announced today to chuck it all in, close the forums and cease to exist, exactly and in detail which part of my businesses fail tomorrow? Next month? Next year? Take your time and present logical facts, not FUD. And keep the imaginary 32-bit is dead, APIs are going missing to a minimum. Unsubstantiated claims don't constitute an intellectual discussion.

Perhaps you are passionate with PowerBasic, or perhaps that you have a leash on from your master
tying  you down to PowerBasic Inc.  Can't blame you for that!

Please don't confuse passion with calm, logical, well-reasoned and well-planned decisions. Oh, and in the real world, we all wear a master's leash, including you.  At least when you're getting paid by someone else.

Perhaps, you should be more forward looking when you are in OxygenBasic forum

Perhaps you should read better and see that I said exactly that, just not in my response to your comment, which wouldn't have been relevant to the point.

Past glamour and past achievements are just that, they are all in the past and have past their primes so to speak.

None of my comments were about glamor or achievements. If you look around the chip on your shoulder, you'll see that past experience has proven your unqualified statement wrong, nothing more and nothing less. The world did not stop and that's the only point I made.

Now after you settle down a little, if you'd like to discuss how you're migrating code from PB to Oxygen, which APIs you know are going away, share some official docs from Intel/MS on the elimination of x32 from the chips or OS, or anything else 'useful', I'd love to continue the discussion. I just don't consider assumptions, emotional overreactions, irrational fears, or mythical 'could happens' to be very constructive.

[Raymond Leech]

Ur 500K lines cobol prog should be tossed out and need to do a total rewrite and migrate its database to a newer database, maybe need a year to do this

So you sidestepped my question. Exactly how would YOU have accomplished the task in 60 days. I'm not that good with math, but a year is 6 times longer than the timeframe.

Have you ever tried to modernize an app that old and large. Your one-year guess is WAY off unless you know something I don't.  Again, I'm always open to ideas.

In complete seriousness, if you actually could put your money where your mouth is and do a half-million loc/year, I know someone personally who would love to meet you ... gig listed at $300k+ (I know for a fact they have made offers 30% above that), and nice performance bonuses!  If you're the real deal, pm me with some background, qualifications and contact info and we'll talk!  I passed because at least in my own experience, the gig is impossible, even if I doubled staff.

[chrisc]

@Ray
that's my estimate time of 1 year, it could be more or less. betcha you can't find anymore cobol programmers to do this kinda of
migration. cobol is long dead, i never heard of it until i check the internet. haha you must be an old guy living in some poor
asian country? well look at the bright side, doing business there can be relaxing as there is no rush to use any trendy new methods.... still operating at 8 or 16bits  hahaha

[Raymond Leech]

cobol is long dead, i never heard of it until i check the internet.

As I suspected, all talk. Continued sidestep, deflect to 'Asian country', no constructive ideas, just bluster. Thanks for the confirmation

[Mike Lobanovsky]

As I suspected, all talk. Continued sidestep, deflect to 'Asian country', no constructive ideas, just bluster. Thanks for the confirmation

And what is it you expected to find on an open forum, Raymond, talking to a beginner programmer?!

Here we are far far away from that stiff, smug, and bumptious backyard you're calling "PB Peer Support Community forum" -- out in the open and free world where end users can freely talk directly to language developers knowing they are not going to be ignored or banned for their naive why's but rather taught and guided along the shortest routes towards the best practices regarding their simple needs.

Charles giveth where Bob took.

And one more thing.

What I'm seeing in the two topmost entries on the PB forum board where hundreds if not thousands of people used to come to expressing their sympathy and condolences, are two messages from that Adam (who?!) guy, the new PB "owner", and two big iron padlocks. If you can read messages like those, you should understand that your former merits before the PB Faterland don't count before the Drake Neue Ordnung. Your PB forum registration is not going to count in on the new Drake Software board.

So what I'd do if I were a PBer, would be rush back and make a web spider copy of the entire PB forum board and its priceless BASIC code base heritage that in fact belongs to the entire humankind rather than that character alone.

For remember my word, next thing that man is going to do will be declare a sudden PB Peer Support Community forum server failure and that will be where the history of PowerBASIC ends.

[Raymond Leech]

and that will be where the history of PowerBASIC ends.

As I said, wouldn't be the first to go extended period without updates, probably wont be the last.  Won't be the first abandonware, probably not the last either. Wouldn't be the first phoenix to rise from the ashes, won't hold my breath waiting. Bottom line, move forward in a logical non-emotional manor and things usually work out fine.

So what I'd do if I were a PBer, would be rush back and make a web spider copy of the entire PB forum board

Way ahead of you Mike, although the nuggets are few enough these days I don't bother to download the whole repository, I just save the new ones of interest.